kathleen

Steven Lippis, 12 months ago

I guess the difference is, a professional makes a living from it.

I think art should be taught. That said, a degree shouldn’t be necessary to practice. Many people in successful bands have studied music formally, many got a guitar, amp and a garage and just went for it.

I’m mostly self taught with photography. But I did learn the basics at school. Learnt more about how to make a pleasing image through other photographers that I knew/met in a camera club. I’ve also done a little tertiary training.

I think some people get a bit protective/defensive about their work because well… they just don’t want to hear criticism. It’s been my experience, people want to be told how good it is, nothing more. I try to tell people what I feel they did wrong and right with an image, but have had people become quite aggressive.

I think what we display should be the things we like. Or that works for us, or conveys what we’re trying to show. Even if noone else gets it. :D
One of my favourite images in my gallery, has barely been looked at, not even a comment. I just can’t bring myself to cull it though.

As for that forum topic. I think I said it there. Go ahead, take 20 images from slightly different angles, but display the best of them. Unless there’s a reason for it, showing many images just degrades the series as a whole.

DataShine, 12 months ago

Having seen (as part of my work) artwork created by people with resumes and qualifications that run to many pages, that essentially sucks (strictly my opinion of course), I would be inclined to say that education has only a limited bearing on the quality of artwork.

Any one who perseveres with their art and/or photography has the potential to improve and refine their work. That may however have little bearing or no on their “popularity” (as demonstrated here on the Bubble) which ultimately comes down to a Public Relations exercise and that magic social process called “Networking”.

kathleen, 12 months ago

May as well post this here too…

I am not suggesting that people should not comment or even upload, sorry if I seem to be saying that… cause I am not…

what is here is a site that is to nurture and encourage, being mixed in with the commercialism of selling and also the fact that there are ‘professional artists’ here amongst the ‘amateur artists’ here etc. and being studies in that area encourages self appraisal before unleashing work on the critics… I wouldn’t be here either if it weren’t for the beautiful people that invest their time in my work.

the conundrum is that, I come here for art and writing and sometimes a photograph will catch my eye. How do we sort it when everything goes to the gallery..

RedBubble don’t make money unless the artists make money… that is reiterated by them elsewhere I think.

but…

how can potential investors sort through everything to find what they want if they don’t have anything necessarily specific in mind. one could say that the gallery could be segregated into different categories

but…

that means each individual should find the same definition of what is art (which is never going to happen) as they upload their images… I doubt some people actually understand what ‘not safe for work means’ cause I got my filter on and there are still artists who upload nudity for the public view, knowing about that function (excluding any language or cultural barriers that is)... but they choose not to and that shows me that they don’t really care about the perception of their work from some people, they want it to be thrust in as many people’s faces as possible regardless of the request to have the filter on on the part of the viewer. that’s just me.

If you seriously want to sell, you need to understand that people will only buy for certain reasons… as graphic designers we are trained to technically produce art for the advertising sector or… how to make a piece of art that will psychologically encourage people to part with their hard earned cash…

but …

the artist makes a piece of art to highlight something they are thinking about or because they wish to experiment with technique…

it probably never can be solved but good to talk about…

My concern is this… If the gallery here becomes like that of other sites that apparaently are losing patrons for not selling etc. then how does RedBubble maintain this space for people like us… who upload to share, who upload to keep being creative because that’s what we love… it is up to each member to preserve the business of the bubble so we can have a free site that lets us rant and rave and be ourselves.

and by thinking that way, I can be more self critical about the crap (and it is crap) that I put up… I am thinking about furterhing my marketing appeal beyond redbubble only to help them with their marketing and vice versa…

DataShine, 12 months ago

Suggestion . . . upload as many works as you like, but only 20 can be on display at any one time. So, you either show your best or newest works, or some combination thereof. It way remove the temptation by some to turn the RB site into a PhotoBucket clone.

kathleen, 12 months ago

that’s a pretty intelligent suggestion datashine… except that there are other artists that have top quality paintings and graphic designs that could be worthy of sale that they will be forced to hide. I mean who know whos selling what except RedBubble, but I can say this… some people are getting really bored with the gallery cause the ‘snaps’ are more predominant than the ‘art’, but that’s also an ambiguous… my graphic art is made from snaps, but I manipulate them and make them better first. that’s what my art is in that respect…

maybe it should come down to how much effort you put in the presentation… haa ha you know, I worked this image in contrast and curves then increased the blah blah and added a sepia photo filter, then enhanced this with that and clipped this out etc. as opposed to I took this pic and sent it straight to the gallery. hmm

DataShine, 12 months ago

Hey Kathleen . . . I wish!

I have digital art that I have spent, in some cases, hundreds of hours on (several major works on the go right now) . . . do you really think that would count for anything?

Steven Lippis, 12 months ago

I’m not a fan of categories, although I know others are.
As you’ve discussed, where does photography end and digital art begin? So where do you put it? Plus, on other sites i’ve had issues with what i’m uploading not fitting into any of the existing categories. How many categories can we end up with? (assuming categories such as seascapes, portraits, etc)

I don’t think there needs to be any sort of definition of what is art. Be it a photograph, throwing paint bombs at a canvas or as someone (was it you?) said in the forums, gluing a tampon onto a card. Some people think it’s art, some don’t. But, more importantly, some people like it and will pay for it, some won’t. I’ve seen some things in art galleries and thought, “It’s very clever, but I wouldn’t call it art.”

I think what you’re getting at is, for redbubble to exist as is, and to thrive, we need to sell? Both to keep people interested, and to financially keep it up and running? So we have to regulate ourselves to only show the best, so people coming from off site actually see the good stuff without having to dig?

From all I can gather, not many people are selling a whole heap on here, but the networking and marketing it makes possible allow them to make sales off site. (And for some that involves buying their own work from RB and selling it on)
I don’t like to make comparisons, but, compared to a place like deviantart, RB looks a lot more professional. You could link someone to it and not instantly be considered a joke, or have them put off by the name.

You’re probably at an advantage as a graphic designer. You’d know what people like, why, and how to sell it. It’s your job! I feel though, that sites like RB, or any other purely online galleries, aren’t likely to move a lot of work. I’d love to see physical galleries for people to go into to buy RB products. Even if it starts with a market stall or exhibition and then moves on to bigger and better things, I think while people will buy many things online, art isn’t one of them.

kathleen, 12 months ago

good points steven, and yes i still would love to chat about that idea, been too busy ranting :-)

Steven Lippis, 12 months ago

Hehe, ranting is healthy! Gotta let it all out. :D
There’s been talk of a market stall down in Melbourne, haven’t heard that it’s actually happened yet.
I find the biggest killer to these ideas is, no one wants to spend any money or time on it.

Paul Louis Vil..., 12 months ago

Hello Kathleen. I think that a great point was made when the suggestion of upload limits be applied to all artists.
I hear the angry mob whineing and moaning all ready! hehehe!
No more than five (publicly viewable) art pieces can be added to a portfolio per seven day period. I think this will give the chance to digital artists who can produce hundreds of works in a week to be a little picky at what they load up.
If a person wants to load up a thousand works to buy for themselves then that’s ok too!
Just my 2 cents worth! Peace and love to all!

DataShine, 12 months ago

Good suggestion Paul . . . (hearing angry murmurs in the background) oh, btw . . . what does a lynch mob sound like? ;-)

DataShine, 12 months ago

Since a “body of work” is usually what is considered to differentiate the professional from the amateur, perhaps there could be a professional category. An artist, photographer or writer would be required to submit a specified number of items which would need to meet “some” (perhaps magical) criteria to be eligible.

Bernd Jansons, 12 months ago

I’m fighting a losing battle not to get sucked into this conversation so here goes. To be perfectly blunt and honest, I no longer expect to sell anything directly through RB. It may be a great market place for some but it hasn’t worked out that way for me. Part of the problem may be that there are very few controls over what is displayed here, unlike other outlets such as galleries where you have to get past the curator or a group of directors. The result is there is an awful lot of stuff here and not all of it is of a certain standard. I include my own stuff as possibly being in that category. The only way I know to have any sense of comfort that my stuff is at best reasonable is to submit it to galleries etc. I’m trying to do that with mixed results; some knockbacks and some acceptances. I’m happy with that process. Another factor that’s already been identified many times is that RB is a place where artists (and please let’s not get into what that means) hang out and artists don’t normally buy other artist’s works unless they’re also collectors.

However, RB is a great showcase and a great place to test the water. I constantly check the number of visits to my various pics. Comments and favs are fab but the traffic is just as meaningful. I get some idea what’s “popular” and what’s not. (And yes, Steven, I also get down if nobody comes to look). Ultimately, this sort of feedback may well help me decide what to submit for exhibition, prizes, etc and even what price I might set.

Another thing I really like about RB (and I’ve already started using this) is as the manufacturer. Having had a sale (through any number of outlets including even e-Bay), I place the order for the piece with RB and they make and ship it for me. That saves me running around to the printers, then a framing service, then Australia Post … etc etc. Same applies if I exhibit. As all my stuff is digital, someone has to create the physical piece and at the moment that’s RB.

So, what’s my point? Well, I reckon RB is doing a great job on a number of fronts and I’m sure they’ll keep trying to make it better and better. In the meantime, I’m happy to come here to play.

betelnut, 12 months ago

Professionalism and Amateurism can be divided the same way sport used to be divided, i.e. if you are paid for you talents/skills/endevours or not. Rather than have a panel decide, let the market decide. Those who sell the most, can put their items into the “professional or most sold” category. This should start to select for artwork chosen by people who put their money where their moouth is.

I also agree with limits on the amount people can post. Start with say 20 photos and 10 T shirts. Everytime you sell one, you get more space.

DataShine, 12 months ago

I like the space ups with sales idea . . . but that still leaves the issue of . . . how will one ever sell anything if no one can find it.

Unless of course one plays “the GAME” (writes three replies to every comment) and thereby makes the pointy end of the gallery.

I would like to see a situation where one’s own comments didn’t count.

betelnut, 12 months ago

I think they have already changed that

frogster, 12 months ago

_digital artists who can produce hundreds of works in a week _

Paul I’ve been doing digital art for 3 yrs. and man I have never put out a hundred in a week, lol, When I do a piece I have a large amount of hours in it not counting me going back a number of times and making changes and more than likely when its finished I’m still not happy with it. I try not to put crap images out there but some people might think that they are. :-) But I know what you ment Paul, that some digital artists just slap something together not watching the lighting, colors or trying to add some realism to it, or even caring if it looks like it was slapped together. But thats how all of us artists learn and grow through trail and error, and having someone make a suggestion or two about our work only to help us out and maybe make us better at the craft we all love to do; be it digital, drawing, painting, photography or what have you. I do agree if RB would allow you to upload so many images in a certain amount of time people might give a much harder thought at what they are putting out. Well I’m done, just wanted to come in and make a comment.

Rose Moxon, 12 months ago

hundreds of works a week? i wish!! i can take a week or two just to do a picture. (maybe im just slow and old!) i have noticed some digital art that is not good quality but im sure mine looked like that when i started. i sincerely hope it doesnt now!! my point here is, encouragement and support inspired me onwards and upwards. btw, love your work frogster! there has to be space for artistic growth without fear of uploading. i am fully supportive of limted daily uploads or limited gallery size, this would mean we all only display our best. cheers.

kathleen, 12 months ago

thanks everyone for your ideas.. yay for conversation.

Joe Mortelliti, 12 months ago

DataShine, one of the moderators posted that multiple replies were no longer were being picked up as seperate comments… as of last week.

kathleen, 12 months ago

Maybe everyone needs a lesson in more effective Tagging of our work and leaving the gallery for browsers but having more effective searches. Hard to ‘enforce’ though (for want of a better word).

DataShine, 12 months ago

Thanks Joe . . . missed that. One can only follow so much at any one time ;-)

and thanks Kathleen . . . it has been an interesting exchange.

Suzanne German, 12 months ago

I won’t say much here – not an artist or a photographer by profession – just as a hobby – but as far as I know a professional is suitably qualified and trained to do something – not just simply making money out of it. I am qualified in health / social care – that is also where and how i make a living …

That’s my two bobs worth!

Suzanne German, 12 months ago

bye the way…i have in the very distant past made a sliver of an income artistically – and loved it!!!! and i have just made a sale here on red bubble – i still think that it is good luck in my case if any of my work is considered professional as i am a novice at serious photography. I have painted and done pottery and mosaic – i have thoroughly enjoyed making unusual pieces out of clay – for personal use and as gifts. I don’t know where that places me – i ten to ‘do’ artistic ‘anything’ from the heart and from a creative spirit….is that art?

Bernd Jansons, 12 months ago

“Art” is a language; a means of human communication. We are all capable of communication, through art as through other languages. It has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with training. It has everything to do with being human.

paul romanowski, 12 months ago

WELL, WHAT CAN ONE SAY?
ART IS ART, NO BOUNDS NO LIMITS NO CRITIQUE, NO NOTHING CAN OR SHOULD EVEN TRY TO FORMAT IT BOUND IT OR RESTRAIN IT. IT JUST LIKE DECIDING WHAT A GOOD OR BAD TREE IS. THEY ALL GROW TO BE A TREE UNLESS SOMEONE CUTS IT DOWN FOR A REASON OB NOT BEING IT THE “PARK OF MY CHOICE”
THINK THIS ENOUGH I GUESS.

kathleen, 12 months ago

I agree Bernd and Paul, the question is not about art it is about… whether all art should be considered a product for sale… The internet did it to music where we have too much choice, not enough controls (over lots of things), and too much inferiour product because it hasn’t been tested. If you want to sell art in this environment should we be considering the market etc.

Traditionally as Bernd pointed out, there were gallery curators (or record companies) that filtered the ‘product’ and marketed it because they know what sells, who buyers are and what they are willing to pay…

It’s something that is not limited to art is it??? In a capitalist commercial world, simply (without saying anything to anyone specific on redbubble, I don’t want to upset anyone) but how do we sort the crap from the brilliance without similar controls to ensure a high quality market…

and…

give new learners a benchmark of quality to strive for…

Maybe I know too much about organisation and business, I have worked in tv, events, commercial design, advertising, sound, university multi media, printing etc. etc. etc.

These are all creative industries, Qld University of Technology have a course named, Creative Industries… but they don’t just let any old drawer, picture snapper etc. in because there is a technical pre-requisite of expectation… now anyone can make art… yes??? (I admit not everyone wants to study art at uni) but…

How do the people who spent a good part of their life actually learning, integrating and creating the day to day work and products and events etc… protect their own integrity if every amateur expects to be critiqued in the same way???

It’s like saying that that Journalist is the same as a Doctor because they know a few medical terms in a sense…

Just another perspective…