kathleen

kathleen, 11 months ago

Thanks Bernd for posting this on my motto… be curious not critical

_Bernd Jansons _

Courtesy of Wikipedia …

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The word critic comes from the Greek κριτικός, kritikós – one who discerns, which itself arises from the Ancient Greek word κριτής, krités, meaning a person who offers reasoned judgement or analysis, value judgement, interpretation, or observation. The term can be used to describe an adherent of a position disagreeing with or opposing the object of criticism.

Modern critics include professionals or amateurs who regularly judge or interpret performances or other works (such as that of artists, scientists, musicians or actors) and, typically, publish their observations, often in periodicals. Critics are numerous in certain fields, including art critics, music critics, film critics, theatre or drama, restaurant and scientific publication critics.

Criticism in general terms means democratic judgement over the suitability of a subject for the intended purposes, as opposed to the authoritarian command, which is meant as an absolute realization of the authority’s will, thus not open for debate.

Criticism is the activity of judgement or informed interpretation. In literary and academic contexts, the term most frequently refers to literary criticism, art criticism, or other such fields, and to scholars’ attempts to understand the aesthetic object in depth. In these contexts the term “critic”, used without qualification, most frequently refers to a scholar of literature or another art form. In other contexts, the term describes hostility or disagreement with the object of criticism. Sometimes context, and the contentiousness of the subject, are the only differentiating factors between these two approaches. In politics, for instance (as in the phrase “criticism of U.S. foreign policy”), criticism almost exclusively refers to disagreement – while in an academic, artistic, or literary context (as in “criticism of Romantic poetry”) it usually refers to the activity of subtle interpretation or analysis.

Criticism can also be a tool of an anti-social behavior, such as a passive-aggressive attack.

Constructive criticism is a form of communication in which a person tries to correct the behavior of another in a non-authoritarian way, and is generally, a diplomatic approach about what another person is doing socially incorrect. It is ‘constructive’ as opposed to a command or an insult and is meant as a peaceful and benevolent approach. Participatory learning in pedagogy is based on these principles of constructive criticism.

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others with the intention of helping the reader or the artist, rather than creating an oppositional attitude. An art critic can also be a champion of a new artistic movement in the face of a hostile public (e.g. John Ruskin), using scholarship and insight to show the value and depth of a new style. Critics might even champion a wholly new art medium; for instance the century-long critical struggle to have photography recognised as a valid art form.

There can be a tension between constructive and useful criticism; for instance, a critic might usefully help an individual artist to recognise what is poor or slapdash in their body of work – but the critic may have to appear harsh and judgemental in order to achieve this.

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Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

I believe any positive comments about how an image “might” be enhanced or refined is from each individual viewer’s personal perspective, but is certainly still constructive because if the idea fits with the creator’s idea of what direction he/she would like to see their work go, they “could” take that on board. But how do we decide, and who decides which people are qualified enough to make those judgements/assessments of another’s work. Unfortunately, just because someone has spent time in formal training does not necessarily mean they are perceptive enough or qualified to do so. I can think of two people I studied Fine Arts with at TAFE and at uni who definitely fall into the category of “not-at-all-qualified” to do so. We need to remember that we are ALL still learning, whether we have qualifications/experience or not.

The other point we need to keep in mind is that many people learn from/absorb what they see around them, from viewing other people’s work – and we shouldn’t assume they are inviting direct critique from “more experienced” artists (who, by the way, don’t always produce better work). But I do like to tell another artist what it is about their work that I like – I’m not telling them how to improve their work, merely highlighting why it works for me. And I don’t restrict these sorts of comments to beginner artists, because I don’t know or care whether they are beginners or experienced. If the work has appeal I say so. A qualified Doctor doesn’t always equal good Doctor, or qualified to train new recruits.

Remember too that there is already a facility in the Forum for those who are seeking that in-depth critique and advice.

You have raised an interesting point though, kathleen – it’s just a matter of making sure it’s not arrogance driving the assumption that experience = qualified to advise or teach those who are less experienced, or the right to inflict that on people not seeking it.

kathleen, 11 months ago

Steven Lippis – comment ‘the academic artist and the amateur perspective’

_“I think art should be taught. That said, a degree shouldn’t be necessary to practice. Many people in successful bands have studied music formally, many got a guitar, amp and a garage and just went for it.

...

I think some people get a bit protective/defensive about their work because well… they just don’t want to hear criticism. It’s been my experience, people want to be told how good it is, nothing more. I try to tell people what I feel they did wrong and right with an image, but have had people become quite aggressive.

...

... Go ahead, take 20 images from slightly different angles, but display the best of them. Unless there’s a reason for it, showing many images just degrades the series as a whole.”_

kathleen, 11 months ago

Thanks Whirli, I am intrigued moreso by the process of critique and communication there of and not at all relating that to RedBubble. It perhaps started that way but I am seeking a better system for my own communication interpretation and display. I have been intrigued by Bernd’s wikipedia post and now I am looking at a more in depth understanding of critique. As I stated these are personal ideas for exploration, and I welcome you comments. It is open for opinion given the changing world of business driven by more diverse means of communication and open marketing. I am not talking about money here either necessarily moreso an internal system for myself as an individual to understand others perspectives in this manner of communication… sort of a bit of research… a spot for me to compile comments about this matter, but this is an observation of SOCIETY not redbubble, but I am keeping my journal here.

I would have hidden this a while if I could hide blogs.

kathleen, 11 months ago

I also am not saying that I am judging or critiquing anyone else here!!! I get the feeling some think that but every single one of my comments here on the expression of other’s artistically speaking is constructive or complimentary. I maybe speaking on a very general level at times in the blogs but it’s also surrounded by the inspirations of other’s thoughts and a desire to understand their concerns also.

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

The other point we need to keep in mind is that this is not a classroom situation, it is a gallery. While I am sure most people are more than happy to receive positive, constructive critique on their work, their main objective is to promote their work, which is what their portfolios are for. There are places outside of RedBubble where people can go to learn or have group discussions on your work.

If someone is protective about their work, then so be it. If the work is no good, it won’t attract viewers and it won’t attract sales. It’s pure arrogance to suggest that they should accept our views or learn from us. If they are happy with what they have produced, why should it bother us?? Art is an individual thing. Fine artists produce from within, it’s a form of self-expression. Graphic designers need to consider their audience while hopefully still maintaining their own integrity – who’s to say we need to all appeal to a specific audience. So my question is, if art (fine art in particular) is a form of self-expression, how and who is going to assume the role of telling another how to “self-express” better?

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

I understand it is a general discussion, but these discussion always lead to more questions which I don’t think have a straight answer. Humanity is so diverse and it is often difficult for us to see beyond our own ideas of what the ideal situation would be. I’m not casting accusations at anyone – I never like to do that – certainly not in your direction either, kathleen, as I do understand your intention.

kathleen, 11 months ago

I agree about your points relating to RedBubble Whili, this is a journal for the topic of ‘critique’ as a concept in general, Bernd’s post above taken from wikipedia is a definition of critique from an encyclopeodia… All art has always been critiqued throughout time in the art world, art, movies, literature by people who study how to critique art and expression on other levels, psychological and stuff. I think you might have missed my point but am not sure. I love RedBubble, you know I love RedBubble… I don’t mean any harm, I have been re-editing my blog entry because I want to keep this for my personal journal / journey and value that I can come here to do that without being marginalized (can’t I?).

And that is the exact irony of this topic…. do you see??? to me it’s about the freedom of expression that we all value and expect here in the community blending with the demands of sustainable economy and how to preserve the things we have found here to be of such personal value… because… someone has to provide these spaces for us… the government dosn’t and therefore the business end of freedom of expression is that there needs to be an outcome called profit… how do RedBubble maintain a balance when the community can support itself to a point but soon everyone will have their fair share of tshirts and greeting cards and wall art and only come here for the fun… therefore … RedBubble need to attract new talent and buyers to maintain their business otherwise they simple will not do this anymore… how can they sustain it if potential “buyers” who pay the rent and the wages, don’t have a chance to find the gold they are digging for in the plethora of art that is on display here… I know that they are talking about these issues, I am just curious how a gallery can work understanding and embracing both mentalities… that is not criticizing anyone’s art it is recognizing the cold hard facts of modern life.

kathleen, 11 months ago

thanks whirli, sorry I was busy typing and missed that last comment til now :-)

Steven Lippis, 11 months ago

Whirligig makes some valid points about people with an education not necessarily being up to scratch. I’ve known some myself, and it’s not limited to art. The quality of most IT students and graduates that i’ve come across is quite frankly, scary.

Back when I was in a camera club, some of the people there had totally mind blowing images. These people would leave a lot of pro’s for dead, yet for them it was just a hobby. Being successful as a pro comes down to marketing more than any sort of artistic skill.

give new learners a benchmark of quality to strive for…

This is definitely necessary. Looking back at my camera club experience again, they had monthly competitions. Besides open/topic categories, they had small colour print, large colour print and slide. This effectively split us into the experienced and inexperienced. I was down in the small colour print section, and the way it worked with you not being able to judge in your own category, we had the top photographers judging our work, and they’d give critiques (not the nasty internet type, but a real one, like your definition above), helping us learn.

The interesting part came when the large print/slides were judged. It fell to us inexperienced no-nothings to not only award points, but to offer critique. It gave us experience in looking at a good image critically, we’d have to think about what was good, what was bad, how it happened, and so by default we learnt about our own image making. And then, for these crotchety old experienced people, they were shown their work in a new light, with fresh eyes.

kathleen, 11 months ago

beautiful insights there steve… thnks again.

nofrillsart, 11 months ago

Hi Kathleen,
This is a difficult one as art is subjective…is jeff koons vaccum cleaner in a perspect box or his work made by other crafts people better than a happy snap? How can you weigh up concepts versus technical execution? I do understand where your coming from, that you are starting to have to wade through some crap on some days on this site.(And i am aware that others may percieve my stuff as that crap…and im fine with that!) I think that if people were more selective it would be better, and educating people in this woud be a help. But, to then impose that on people learning it gets difficult. I dont like the mass produced tees or images where you know the person wouldnt buy their own stuff. I personally work as a teacher and also run community arts projects and have worked as a professional artist for a while now, so my perspective is if you have quality and you network your work will stand up. It doesnt mean yu will make money, find fame…but it will be enough to give you incentive to keep creating…and that is the key. Experienced Artists should be inclusive and supportive and encourage others rather than compete, but then we(here in Australia) live in a young country with little appreciation of the arts, so again a hard one. If there was a cost to upload you would see a higher standard of work(not that i want this). But you would also see more crap from those wealthier than others. And lose the equity of redbubble. I guess i cant answer any of the questions or issues you raise, but i hope this has been interesting.
btw… i find this useful in reference to quality assurance
a sense of humour!!!

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

Steven, you’ve made a great contribution to this whole issue. Some very interesting points raised about how newbies can learn from being forced to analyse work of more experienced and professional people, and critique it. We did that a lot in our art studies, and it was great. We also experienced the other side of the coin where we had to display our own portfolio and listen (without contribution or responding) to all the other students’ critiques on our work. It helped us understand how our work came across to others and whether it was successful or failed in its intention. But it was acceptable in this environment as we were there for the purpose of learning, and there was no room for being precious about our work. In fact I think we all came out of it being harder on ourselves than others were – that’s what makes us strive to improve and continue to learn and experiment.

kathleen, 11 months ago

thanks nofrills, not necessarily after answers just interested in the psychology, heaps to think about there..

It’s not a new concept…

kathleen, 11 months ago

thankyou whirli, I unfortunately haven’t been able to experience that type of setting… I would hear a collegue say, “no that’s crap, need to do better’” or similarly, “I don’t think you’ve hit the brief”. My self-esteem got very battered around in the workplace learning environment and still does when a client rejects my concepts. Or when everyone in the office suddenly knows everything about your job… that’s a huge issue I have come up against, trying to explain the importance (psychologically) of visual balance to a copywriter… sheesh. It’s seemed very easy at work for one person to completely trash your ideas without considering any of the important communication issues one gets taught and some don’t fine artists perhaps don’t understand how much intuition and freedom there can be in a graphic design environment… In fact having limitations over particular things always pushed the boundaries of style, concept, layout and illustration… I always tried to present unique kathleen style within currently accepted marketable styles if that makes sense…

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

I know that there can be a lot of freedom in the graphic design environment. That is not in dispute at all – well not in my mind. But it is still largely a field designed to cater to commercial demands, and in that situation it must please the client who is paying for the service, or the boss who is overseeing the project. So while there are still restrictions/instructions imposed on the subject or purpose of the work by the client or boss, the graphic designer still comes up with the ideas to suit that purpose, and does infuse his/her own style or “signature” in the final image/result. But obviously graphic design is used in many areas, not only in the advertising field, and there would be unlimited freedom in some of those other areas. My understanding is that fine art is not as controlled in it’s physical expression (ie much more freedom to smudge your work up if you want, and then draw over it, and draw into it – just an example). I studied design with the graphic design students and it nearly drove me around the bend because it was too controlled for me. For the second semester I transferred to design with the fine art students, and I absolutely loved it. I felt like I’d been unchained.

It certainly sounds like you’ve had a bad trot with criticism, kathleen, and I don’t care what anyone says, but criticism does NOT help people learn. It can do quite the opposite. It doesn’t matter what the situation is, there is always a positive way of commenting on something to help (ie. instead of “that’s crap”, they could say “Why don’t you see if it works better with this part bold/red/green/bigger”, or “it might be more effective if you left this out” or “Have you tried this/that”). In all the years I was studying – part-time for 10 years – the other students were never derogatory about other students’ art. It was always about what worked, and if it didn’t, why they believed it didn’t work, and they would offer suggestions about how they felt it could be strengthened or re-approached. Those sessions were not about whether we liked each other’s work or not, but they were extremely constructive and encouraging.

WarOfTheRoses, 11 months ago

I think you pretty much said it with your line about giving people a benchmark, as others have already noted… It’s not so much the duty of an artist to help others improve as the responsibility of “amateurs” to draw inspiration and learn from the works of great artists. Not that i have a problem with artists helping other artists get better, but the most valuable service good artists provide to the community is producing good art.

people talk about art being subjective, but more importantly than that, it’s relative. If we line a group of people up by height, then the order is clear, provided we measure accurately. You can’t line artists up from best to worst, but you could conceivably print out 10,000 random works from redbubble and line them up in your own personal “quality” order. If everyone on RB the same thing, no one would have the same order, but you’d pretty much have “high achievers” that are mainly around the top, and “crap” (relatively speaking) at the other end, and a whole bunch of stuff in between with narrower appeal.

This is where the relativity comes in. If a whole flood of “high quality” work was to be submitted to RB, the crap stuff would look even crapper in comparison, and even some of the okay stuff would be re-sectioned to crap, in people’s minds at least.

so the upshot is, high quality work depends on low quality work for its status. As long as the crap:good ratio doesn’t get too high (making good stuff too hard to find), then the good artists will benefit overall. The best thing they can do for RB community is to draw inspiration from others, produce better art, and keep raising the bar. The best thing the crap artists can do is try to be less crap in future, but keep a steady trickle of crap coming in pls because it’ll help make everyone else look good. Some might even say this comment is crap but to them i say, Lo, for I am the rough to your diamond. Love me, like a shining skyscraper loves its dank foundations.

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

I like your attitude, WarOfTheRoses.

robert murray, 11 months ago

we are all different in this world what one person likes another might not like it and as I left school at 15 and never had a pass in art, music or english I could never learn from anyone else I have to learn by experience and I have over the years with singing, songwriting,short stories and art. Most of my life I have been painting and touring and made records tapes and a cd and I have done alright out of it and my motto has always been….” paint, sing ,write and take photos ..not like you see…but what you feel and it has worked for me over 50 years…just my say

Patricia L. Ba..., 11 months ago

Not sure that this is the correct place for this idea, but thought I’d throw it out there as another dimension to the photography debate. I don’t even pretend to be a great photographer. My training is as college art history major and a lifetime of studying textiles, weaving, sewing, knitting, basket making, crocheting, etc. I’ve studied design on my to produce better textiles. I can no longer do those things much of the time because of asthma and allergies, so I’ve been doing more photography as a creative outlet. On my last several trips to Fredonia, Kansas, my hometown, I’ve been taking pictures. The ones that I’ve considered the best, I’ve put up in my gallery on the very last page. I’ve done this as a sort of history project because the town is drying up, maybe even vanishing. It’s a visual history of a part of American life that is going to be mostly gone in a few years. To speed the process up, whole towns were washed away in the flooding this spring. Should these pictures be posted on another site? Maybe I should take off the for sale tag? It’s just important to me to get these shots out to as many people as possible. It’s a validation of what I am.

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

My thoughts on this, Patricia, are if your pictures are telling a story about those places they have a place here. This is the problem with these sorts of debates – they start to make well-intentioned people insecure and doubtful, and sometimes remove perfectly valid images. Until/if RedBubble organisers decide that your images are not suitable, or they provide another category for historical-type work, I would suggest you leave them up if you feel there is worth in them, and if you intend to sell them, for whatever purpose. It’s not for individual members to make that decision about other people’s work, unless that work is breaking some social, moral or ethical standard.

kathleen, 11 months ago

they are worthy documentary series, they are valid in my book… there’s more to bloody creativity that just visual art anyway :-) haa haa

Elaine van Dyk, 11 months ago

Well stated, kathleen.